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	<title>Comments on: Music by donation: Some data</title>
	<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/</link>
	<description>Online economics</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mick Nye</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-13288</link>
		<dc:creator>Mick Nye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-13288</guid>
		<description>I have started offering a similar thing from our website, only here there is no "middleman". Some of my productions are free to download, and it is coming directly from the artist, not via a music community portal. I think its a good thing to do this, because it will allow people to check in on the material I am developing, and fetch it, even though some of it are early unmastered or lofi versions or remix'es, of what will later be published on the albums and played live.

Cheers
Michael
--
You find it here: http://www.micknye.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have started offering a similar thing from our website, only here there is no &#8220;middleman&#8221;. Some of my productions are free to download, and it is coming directly from the artist, not via a music community portal. I think its a good thing to do this, because it will allow people to check in on the material I am developing, and fetch it, even though some of it are early unmastered or lofi versions or remix&#8217;es, of what will later be published on the albums and played live.</p>
<p>Cheers<br />
Michael<br />
&#8211;<br />
You find it here: <a href="http://www.micknye.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.micknye.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: gurdonark</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-2631</link>
		<dc:creator>gurdonark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-2631</guid>
		<description>Hi there:

I liked the post, because you clearly set out your assumptions and the derivation of your conclusions, and then provided good graphics to show what you determined.

I like very much also that the folks in Jamendo took an open constructive approach in response, adding to your ideas rather than being defensive or less than candid.
I'd like to talk about what I see as a false dichotomy between a "more open source" release system and a "pay the old fashioned way" release system. 

As a co-owner of a netlabel, Negative Sound Institute, it's important to us that our music be available for entirely free download--no charges, no donationware, and no advertising. I see our work as an outgrowth of earlier trends in a "sharing culture", a descendant of mail art and the tape exchange and the open source softwae movements, regularized under satisfying Creative Commons licensing.

Yet I become concerned that donationware and free releaes and self-determined pricing become "debate points" about what artists should or should not do. I see these debates points as in the main beside the point.

If someone wishes not to release product on a free or non-commercial license basis, then I'm perfectly happy for them to choose to do so. I am not trying to insist that my way of releasing music--for free--is the "only right way" or "the quickest way to make money". I believe that the traditional record company way of funding, releasing and controlling intellectual property is pretty much over--a casualty of improved recording technology and the internet's advantage over traditional hegemonies over product distribution. I am not sure that traditional music sales, as opposed to licensing and ad-revenue-based models, will work any longer. But time will tell us that--it's not really a debate point.

It would, to me, be unfortunate to argue that all intellectual property "must" be open source and public domain. I don't mean to use the freedoms provided by new technology and listener-friendly licensing to take away the notion that a reasonable copyright term to protect an artist's interest for a finite time period is an acceptable way to encourage artistic creation. I opposed the copyright extensions in the US because to me the social contract of copyright is that work must eventually reach the public domain.
Yet the idea of copyright does not trouble me, and I have little sympathy with those who feel a moral right to download copyrighted material.

Still, many of us in netlabel culture, and some days I feel as though it's actually "almost all of us in netlabel culture", release music without any plan for profit, licensing or donations. We do it because we believe in creating a vast body of music which may be obtained for non-commercial purposes on a free basis. A lot of us post to jamendo or archive.org. When we do so, getting any donations is the furthest thing from our mind.

I'd love to post an album at jamendo, but my goal would not be to make money or become an ad-revenue-receiving mogul. My goal would be to be heard by the wonderful jamendo community, who download, review, rate and spread the word about the popular artists there. I plan to post a jamendo album this year, and I may activate the donation buttons. But in the unlikely event that my weirdbient music got me a small check in the mail, I'd donate it to animal adoption. To me, the music is about sharing.

Still, I support folks like Issa ('nee jane siberry), Radiohead and Kristin Hersh. I'd like to note that Kristin Hersh is taking the concept further into a Creative Commons read/write approach with her CASH music, which uses not only self-determined pricing, but also makes available the original files for free download for easy remxing (she's even posted her a capellas of her two most recent songs on ccmixter).

A Kristin Hersh or an Issa could not get a conventional record deal, and even if they could, would be unlikely given industry accounting to get much more than a smallish advance and few royalties barring a major hit. Issa's self-determined pricing, coupled with touring, has supported her for some years now. Is this a model for everyone? I'm not sure. But I suspect that Kristin Hersh and Issa will make this model work, because they share a small, devoted fan base that will pay to keep the artist recording.

Thank you for such a great post, and for the points you make here. My intention is not to take away from the display you provide, but to instead point out that jamendo artists I enjoy hearing (such as the wonderful Henri Petterson) have been releasing music for free for years in the netlabel scene. My belief is that they don't see jamendo as a piggy bank, but as a way to share in a community. But it's okay, too, for those who want to sell outside Jamendo, to do so. It's user's choice, and that's a good thing.

Robert Nunnally,
who records as gurdonark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there:</p>
<p>I liked the post, because you clearly set out your assumptions and the derivation of your conclusions, and then provided good graphics to show what you determined.</p>
<p>I like very much also that the folks in Jamendo took an open constructive approach in response, adding to your ideas rather than being defensive or less than candid.<br />
I&#8217;d like to talk about what I see as a false dichotomy between a &#8220;more open source&#8221; release system and a &#8220;pay the old fashioned way&#8221; release system. </p>
<p>As a co-owner of a netlabel, Negative Sound Institute, it&#8217;s important to us that our music be available for entirely free download&#8211;no charges, no donationware, and no advertising. I see our work as an outgrowth of earlier trends in a &#8220;sharing culture&#8221;, a descendant of mail art and the tape exchange and the open source softwae movements, regularized under satisfying Creative Commons licensing.</p>
<p>Yet I become concerned that donationware and free releaes and self-determined pricing become &#8220;debate points&#8221; about what artists should or should not do. I see these debates points as in the main beside the point.</p>
<p>If someone wishes not to release product on a free or non-commercial license basis, then I&#8217;m perfectly happy for them to choose to do so. I am not trying to insist that my way of releasing music&#8211;for free&#8211;is the &#8220;only right way&#8221; or &#8220;the quickest way to make money&#8221;. I believe that the traditional record company way of funding, releasing and controlling intellectual property is pretty much over&#8211;a casualty of improved recording technology and the internet&#8217;s advantage over traditional hegemonies over product distribution. I am not sure that traditional music sales, as opposed to licensing and ad-revenue-based models, will work any longer. But time will tell us that&#8211;it&#8217;s not really a debate point.</p>
<p>It would, to me, be unfortunate to argue that all intellectual property &#8220;must&#8221; be open source and public domain. I don&#8217;t mean to use the freedoms provided by new technology and listener-friendly licensing to take away the notion that a reasonable copyright term to protect an artist&#8217;s interest for a finite time period is an acceptable way to encourage artistic creation. I opposed the copyright extensions in the US because to me the social contract of copyright is that work must eventually reach the public domain.<br />
Yet the idea of copyright does not trouble me, and I have little sympathy with those who feel a moral right to download copyrighted material.</p>
<p>Still, many of us in netlabel culture, and some days I feel as though it&#8217;s actually &#8220;almost all of us in netlabel culture&#8221;, release music without any plan for profit, licensing or donations. We do it because we believe in creating a vast body of music which may be obtained for non-commercial purposes on a free basis. A lot of us post to jamendo or archive.org. When we do so, getting any donations is the furthest thing from our mind.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to post an album at jamendo, but my goal would not be to make money or become an ad-revenue-receiving mogul. My goal would be to be heard by the wonderful jamendo community, who download, review, rate and spread the word about the popular artists there. I plan to post a jamendo album this year, and I may activate the donation buttons. But in the unlikely event that my weirdbient music got me a small check in the mail, I&#8217;d donate it to animal adoption. To me, the music is about sharing.</p>
<p>Still, I support folks like Issa (&#8217;nee jane siberry), Radiohead and Kristin Hersh. I&#8217;d like to note that Kristin Hersh is taking the concept further into a Creative Commons read/write approach with her CASH music, which uses not only self-determined pricing, but also makes available the original files for free download for easy remxing (she&#8217;s even posted her a capellas of her two most recent songs on ccmixter).</p>
<p>A Kristin Hersh or an Issa could not get a conventional record deal, and even if they could, would be unlikely given industry accounting to get much more than a smallish advance and few royalties barring a major hit. Issa&#8217;s self-determined pricing, coupled with touring, has supported her for some years now. Is this a model for everyone? I&#8217;m not sure. But I suspect that Kristin Hersh and Issa will make this model work, because they share a small, devoted fan base that will pay to keep the artist recording.</p>
<p>Thank you for such a great post, and for the points you make here. My intention is not to take away from the display you provide, but to instead point out that jamendo artists I enjoy hearing (such as the wonderful Henri Petterson) have been releasing music for free for years in the netlabel scene. My belief is that they don&#8217;t see jamendo as a piggy bank, but as a way to share in a community. But it&#8217;s okay, too, for those who want to sell outside Jamendo, to do so. It&#8217;s user&#8217;s choice, and that&#8217;s a good thing.</p>
<p>Robert Nunnally,<br />
who records as gurdonark</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Marco Italy</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-2476</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco Italy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-2476</guid>
		<description>the average donation is U$14.5 across the online ? Well that is great! I attach value (and price) to the experience of music not to the f..ng packaging material and the "opportunity" to buy CD in a store at opening hours...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the average donation is U$14.5 across the online ? Well that is great! I attach value (and price) to the experience of music not to the f..ng packaging material and the &#8220;opportunity&#8221; to buy CD in a store at opening hours&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-1217</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-1217</guid>
		<description>Is the average European vs US donation comparison based on nominal value?
I imagine it's obvious that Europeans donate a lot more in USD because simply the EUR is much more worth than the USD. If I donate 10€ that would be more than $14 already, yet from a personal standpoint I've probably not given more than an American who had donated $10.
The introductory price for 1 EUR was 1 USD and if both economies developed about equally then the nominal value of the donation in the respective currency would give a much better picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the average European vs US donation comparison based on nominal value?<br />
I imagine it&#8217;s obvious that Europeans donate a lot more in USD because simply the EUR is much more worth than the USD. If I donate 10€ that would be more than $14 already, yet from a personal standpoint I&#8217;ve probably not given more than an American who had donated $10.<br />
The introductory price for 1 EUR was 1 USD and if both economies developed about equally then the nominal value of the donation in the respective currency would give a much better picture.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-414</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-414</guid>
		<description>François: Thanks for the feedback. I did use monthly average exchange rates to convert the euro values to USD, so yes changes in the exchange rate will be reflected in the result. On the other hand although there appears to be a trend in the average donation, it's not statistically significant, so we can't really say that it exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>François: Thanks for the feedback. I did use monthly average exchange rates to convert the euro values to USD, so yes changes in the exchange rate will be reflected in the result. On the other hand although there appears to be a trend in the average donation, it&#8217;s not statistically significant, so we can&#8217;t really say that it exists.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: François Dongier</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-408</link>
		<dc:creator>François Dongier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-408</guid>
		<description>Hi Aaron,

Congratulations for this analysis. But I'm wondering if the first diagram isn't a bit misleading: doesn't the upward trend (at least in recent months) reflect the drop of the USD compared to the euro?
Also, it would be interesting to plot the evolution of the average donation amount in time. I think two opposite forces are in action here: one (that should push towards a decrease) is the growing acceptance that "music is free", the other (pushing up) being the growing desire of music listeners to find other ways to support artists than buying their records. I have no clue how to distinguish these two, but I think it will be interesting to watch how the numbers evolve in coming months/years.

Cheers,
François</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Aaron,</p>
<p>Congratulations for this analysis. But I&#8217;m wondering if the first diagram isn&#8217;t a bit misleading: doesn&#8217;t the upward trend (at least in recent months) reflect the drop of the USD compared to the euro?<br />
Also, it would be interesting to plot the evolution of the average donation amount in time. I think two opposite forces are in action here: one (that should push towards a decrease) is the growing acceptance that &#8220;music is free&#8221;, the other (pushing up) being the growing desire of music listeners to find other ways to support artists than buying their records. I have no clue how to distinguish these two, but I think it will be interesting to watch how the numbers evolve in coming months/years.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
François</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: A E Pfeiffer</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-373</link>
		<dc:creator>A E Pfeiffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-373</guid>
		<description>The Canadian artist, Jane Siberry, started experimenting with self-determined pricing back in November 2005, way before Radiohead. Current data on payments can be found here:
http://www.sheeba.ca/store/letterSDP.php
Since then she's changed her name to Issa and is now toying with the idea of some sort of radical pricing for her concerts too (according to her latest newsletter).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Canadian artist, Jane Siberry, started experimenting with self-determined pricing back in November 2005, way before Radiohead. Current data on payments can be found here:<br />
<a href="http://www.sheeba.ca/store/letterSDP.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.sheeba.ca/store/letterSDP.php</a><br />
Since then she&#8217;s changed her name to Issa and is now toying with the idea of some sort of radical pricing for her concerts too (according to her latest newsletter).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: gary</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-367</link>
		<dc:creator>gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-367</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. 
I'm against giving away music for free and relying on donations as it is a very small percentage of people who will actually pay for the music (as seen in your article), and also the music itself is devalued. It costs alot of time/money/sweat/tears to create a song/album.... why shouldn't the artist get some reward. 
Alot has been said about Radiohead, but the main point with them is that they are already very well established with a huge fanbase who would buy their sweaty jocks if they could. For the normal artist or a new artist it's impossible to survive by giving your music away. The best model I've seen is www.sellaband.com where artists/fans/label are in business together and split any profits equally. They have free mp3's for download too, but offer the complete album or other songs for sale. I think that is the model that makes the most sense at the moment, for everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting.<br />
I&#8217;m against giving away music for free and relying on donations as it is a very small percentage of people who will actually pay for the music (as seen in your article), and also the music itself is devalued. It costs alot of time/money/sweat/tears to create a song/album&#8230;. why shouldn&#8217;t the artist get some reward.<br />
Alot has been said about Radiohead, but the main point with them is that they are already very well established with a huge fanbase who would buy their sweaty jocks if they could. For the normal artist or a new artist it&#8217;s impossible to survive by giving your music away. The best model I&#8217;ve seen is <a href="http://www.sellaband.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.sellaband.com</a> where artists/fans/label are in business together and split any profits equally. They have free mp3&#8217;s for download too, but offer the complete album or other songs for sale. I think that is the model that makes the most sense at the moment, for everyone.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Scribblerist</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-358</link>
		<dc:creator>Scribblerist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-358</guid>
		<description>Very cool. Radiohead's move to a donation system for their album "In Rainbows" has triggered a lot of media fuss, the dominant tone being 'the business is obsolete.' Your analysis seems to both confirm and debunk this idea. In any case, this is the kind of thinking people should pay attention to, not the hype. 

Radiohead's revenue numbers will not be, I suspect, the norm. They have a worldwide base of rabid fans (such as myself) who feel honor bound to give them a fair price. The music critic Sasha-Frere Jones wrote in his blog that the average donation was in the $5-$10 range. 

We'll see!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very cool. Radiohead&#8217;s move to a donation system for their album &#8220;In Rainbows&#8221; has triggered a lot of media fuss, the dominant tone being &#8216;the business is obsolete.&#8217; Your analysis seems to both confirm and debunk this idea. In any case, this is the kind of thinking people should pay attention to, not the hype. </p>
<p>Radiohead&#8217;s revenue numbers will not be, I suspect, the norm. They have a worldwide base of rabid fans (such as myself) who feel honor bound to give them a fair price. The music critic Sasha-Frere Jones wrote in his blog that the average donation was in the $5-$10 range. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ll see!</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-331</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 01:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.26econ.com/music-by-donation-some-data/#comment-331</guid>
		<description>Sylvain: Thanks for the explanations and links to the raw data, it'll be useful for further analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sylvain: Thanks for the explanations and links to the raw data, it&#8217;ll be useful for further analysis.</p>
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